Security Field Offers Career Growth and Opportunity

Hi, this is Lindy Kyzer with ClearanceJobs.com and welcome to this episode today. I’m super excited to be talking to Amy Grossman. She is a security manager at MIT’s Lincoln Laboratory. I’ve gotten to know her working in and around the security clearance community, and recently read a profile of her that the MIT Laboratory did. You’ve been working in this field since I think 2005, Amy. I’m always super impressed when I talk to folks who have not just started a career in security but moved through the career field.

There’s just kind of a wealth and breadth of knowledge around personnel security. I love to highlight great, amazing women working in the national security community and the security field. On that note, just thank you for joining us, and I would just love to learn more about what attracted you to even starting or got you into your first job working in the security industry.

Thank you for having me. I’m excited to share my story with you today. So, as you mentioned, I am a manager at MIT Lincoln Laboratory in the security services department. We are an FFRDC, a federally funded research and development center, which makes us a little different than most folks you’ll find in the industrial security profession. The way I found the laboratory was probably how most people find the laboratory. I knew somebody that worked there, we’re kind of a little hidden gem outside of Boston, so a lot of people don’t even know we exist. But I worked in law enforcement for about five years. I was a criminal justice major. Just like every young person, I wanted to be an FBI agent when I grew up, but I was looking for something different to do with my degree.

Law enforcement can be frustrating, you don’t always feel like you’re making progress. So, a friend of the family had suggested I look at Lincoln Labs and I found an entry level position for a personnel security coordinator. So, my first job was processing security clearances, background checks, badging people. So, it was a great way to kind of learn about this security profession that a lot of us hadn’t even heard of when we’re in college. It’s not something that they talked about many years ago when I started my career. So, it was a great way to get exposed into that first level.

I love it. And so talk a little bit about Lincoln Labs because I love to highlight kind of that the personnel security process exists outside of the big 10 defense contractors you think of. Sometimes, like you said, we have a career track in mind, so for you FBI agent didn’t come to be. For a lot of folks, maybe working for one of the big 10 defense contractors isn’t going to come to be. What kind of work does Lincoln Labs do that actually needs to have a personnel security and a vetting process?

Yeah. So, we are a Top Secret research lab. So, we have a lot of different work that we’re doing for a lot of government agencies and we require everybody to obtain and maintain a security clearance at the laboratory, so we have a small office that processes all those clearances, keeps them up to date to make sure we can keep working on all those great programs. And the thing I liked about Lincoln Laboratory, I mentioned that I had wanted to be an agent when I was young, there’s a lot of travel and change involved with that. This is a great way to support the government, support the war fighter from your own backyard. I was born and raised in Massachusetts, so it was something that I could do close to home but also support the great mission that I was looking for.

I think Massachusetts is kind of one of the hidden gem states when it comes to national security because there is a great research community in the state. I think there’s kind of a lot more clear jobs than you would come to think about. I think a lot of folks kind of tend to think about the DC Metro, which obviously there is a ton to be done there, but there are a lot of opportunities.

It is definitely a big area for technology, and because of that, naturally I think there’s a lot of interest in that area and there’s a lot of jobs in that section. So, people should definitely consider Massachusetts. If you live in that area, you’re lucky, there’s a lot of opportunities to be had. But yeah, if you’re looking for someplace outside of DC, maybe with a little less traffic, a little bit more countryside, you can check out Massachusetts as an option.

Yeah, I love it. And then I think the research aspect of it is super important. I think we just recently had a conversation with Mike Orlando who’s currently director of NCSC, and he was talking about how focusing on academia and the work that’s being done there is a critical focus for what they’re doing in NCSC, and trying to convince stakeholders across that research community of how important that is. It’s a great sign for how important MIT takes its work and its research and the Top Secret aspect of it that. You’re doing cutting edge research, but you’re also making sure you’re protecting what needs to be protected.

Yeah, absolutely. We definitely take security seriously, protecting the research and the technologies that we’re developing are really important. And we share that, we invite folks like Mike and other agencies like that out to the laboratory for our security education week actually to talk about these things and just help us reiterate how important this is to protect this information.

I love that. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about again, your career journey and working in the personnel security field. And I loved, again, kind of highlighting that as a woman in this profession probably would’ve been the same if you actually joined law enforcement or the FBI in that capacity. You’re probably used to working in a lot of these industries where it can be very male-dominated, where you might be the minority voice or person in the room. Has that been your experience and how have you navigated that? What are you doing now to encourage other folks?

Yes, it’s definitely been a male-dominated career field. I never really thought of it in sort of harsh terms that it’s us and them. When I’ve been navigating my career, I’ve just sort of kept pushing forward. I would apply for positions that I was interested in even though law enforcement, like you said, and security are very male-dominated. But I will say over my career I’ve seen a lot of change. So, when I first started going to meetings and working groups and conferences, it was definitely a very big male population, but over time I’ve seen a big shift and I’ve seen a lot more women attending these events, which has been great.

And even in my own department, I’ve seen us hiring more and more women, which is awesome. And something I would’ve liked to seen over my career is more support to sort of help each other out and support each other’s careers, and that’s some way that I’m able to give back now. So, I’ve been able to work with my colleagues to set up a women’s network in our department. So, we are a resource for mentoring and training and just a network of support to help each other grow our careers and kind of navigate that workforce.

Yeah, I love that. I got my career start working in the Army and it was very similar where it was clearly a male-dominated scenario. Anytime you’re working with the military, just the numbers themselves kind of bear that out. I think finding the right mentors and stakeholders and folks to help lift you up along the way is certainly key and has always been helpful to me. Can you speak to maybe mentorship or how finding strategic allies within the industry, has that been a part of your career story at all?

Yes, I would definitely not have been able to do it alone, definitely having mentors and a broad group of mentors. So, I talk with folks in my profession and outside my profession that have given me pointers and tips and encouragement and things to think about to help me advance my career. But you also need cheerleaders or champions within your organization to help you to talk about you and your accomplishments and things when you’re not in the room. Somebody to help get you opportunities or connect to opportunities is really key. And it’s difficult to do, I know, but I tried myself to do that for others because I know how important that is and how instrumental that is to broadening your horizons and giving you different opportunities and circumstances, so you can learn something different and grow and maybe move in different directions.

That is a golden nugget right there, having mentors both within your organization and kind of external to it, so maybe folks who have outside perspective who aren’t in the weeds of what your organization is doing. I think that brings in great kind of thought diversity, and we talk about that a ton at ClearanceJobs now, the typical career track is no longer a ladder, it’s kind of a lattice. And a lot of people are going kind of in and out and across, and the IC and DOD are doing a better job of making that possible, which we love to see. So, how did you maybe find some of those folks throughout your career and what have been some of those people who have been kind of those helpers and stakeholders?

I think it’s important to think too, some mentorships are very formal where you talk to somebody or you’re assigned a mentor. I prefer the relationships that sort of evolve organically. So, I talk to a lot of people, anybody that knows me knows that I like to talk, I like to network and connect others and connect myself. And that’s a way that mentors can evolve, you are talking with people about things that you’re working on and things that you’re doing. And then sometimes relationships just naturally progress that they give you feedback or they give you input or they tell you something to think about. So, I like those relationships that just kind of evolve organically.

But there’s also the formal mentoring, which can be helpful, and I know a lot of organizations have programs like MIT Lincoln Laboratory has a formal mentorship program for new staff and new leaders and they have different types of it. So, both are great, and I really love what you mentioned about success looks different these days, the latter and the lattice. I think that’s awesome. I think that we should be thinking about success differently. I was just talking to my team this morning about that and not just rising up a ladder going as far as you can go. You should be getting different types of experiences at your level, whether it’s personnel security or cyber or whatever your interests are and whatever opportunities come forward, you should definitely try to gain different experiences in different types of security.

You kind of mentioned that talking with your team and being in a management level now within security. So, talk about that career journey a little bit, starting out in personnel security and now you’re in management and strategy, and what does that look like across the security organization to be doing kind of management and strategy versus being in the weeds of the personnel security piece?

Yeah. And it’s been a long journey. I’ve been working at Lincoln Labs for almost 18 years, so I’ve had a lot of different experiences. But I did start at entry level, like I mentioned. I did move up to a lead position where I was managing the personnel security office. From there things kind of expanded, I had different opportunities. I managed investigations at one point, I had locksmiths at another point, things kind of moved and was a little fluid depending on the needs of the business and what was going on, but every time I took on a new office or a new leadership role, I learned more and more things. Now, I’ve worked my way up to manager. And my career’s been a little different, I’ve had a family along the way too.

So, from when I became assistant manager of government security, managing investigations per sec and all those things, I did take a side step into a senior staff position, so that I could be a little bit more in control of my schedule to help manage my home life and what was going on.

But that was a great experience and I got to get involved with more projects across the whole department by doing that. And I think that type of role set me up to the management position that I’m in today. Being the manager of our strategy and project management office has been a unique opportunity. I’ve been able to take all of the corporate knowledge I have about our department and the projects and really help chart our future in security. And we’ve been making a lot of changes, which is exciting, but we’re trying to move ourselves forward and my office has been doing a lot of that. So, it’s been really exciting.

And that’s such a great point that you mentioned how you at different points in your career, you’re looking for different things, and almost sometimes the flexibilities that you need actually enable mechanisms for you to move up and into better positions. I think sometimes we look at our limitations as prohibiting our career, but I find sometimes the limitations that I’ve had in place because of my home life have actually opened up the doors for more creative positions in my professional life. So, I guess I would lean into that too, especially for folks who are like me, professional plate spinners. I think what I’m hearing from you is you pivoted at some point to look for more flexibility, but it sounds like probably that was a part of what’s moved you into being able to think strategically and work in different roles, and now into the management position within the organization.

Absolutely. Had I not taken that opportunity to learn something new, I may have still been doing the same thing I’m doing. But it’s hard to know where you would go if you took one opportunity versus another. But I definitely think that taking that senior staff position opened my eyes to more things within my department. I wasn’t just focused on personnel security or the things I was doing, I was able to learn more about cyber or physical security or mission security, special programs, see how they all work together, and it gave me a new perspective, which was great.

The security you function is so incredibly important, but across organizations, I mean every person needs to care about security. So, I think the more overlap we have between the security fields and industries, I am kind of a stovepipe basher in terms of all of my capacity. So I always love to see that, the crossover. And we get that question at ClearanceJobs a lot like, “Hey, if I’m working as an FSO or a security officer in some capacity, what does that transition look like?” It can take a lot of different directions because your security expertise is valuable across the organization, not just in your security office.

I agree. And getting exposed to different types of security will just make you even stronger. So, you’re not focused on just one small aspect, you’re seeing the whole picture and how everything works together.

And so I always have to do a shout-out for all of the changes that are taking place across personnel security, give a shout-out to my friends in the government on a show like this. So, I’d love to hear from someone who has worked in personnel security so long because you do see the way that things are changing. We kind of joke that the process moves at a snails pace and that is absolutely true. But maybe can you speak to, I don’t know, your perspective as a security manager and strategist now, how much you kind of see the arc of the Trusted Workforce 2.0 stuff. But do you see these muscle movements now and do they seem significant to you from where you’re sitting? They’re calling it the biggest transformation in security and vetting today. Is that true to your experience from your vantage point?

Over time, I’ve seen a lot of change through the organization, whether it’s through the forms or how we submit the forms or the fingerprints and how we submit those. Back when I started, we were taking ink fingerprints, so lots of changes happened and it’s all moving in the right direction. So, we are getting better with the automation and what information they’re looking for, what types of things that they’re doing. I know they’re trying to be more strategic in what they’re looking at in people’s backgrounds, so that they can make really good decisions when granting clearances. But overall, I definitely have seen improvements over time.

It feels slow when you’re in the process and I feel for people after processing so many clearances and helping so many people through the process. I definitely feel for folks when they’re in the process and they’re waiting for that interim or they’re waiting for that final clearance that it seems like it takes forever. It’s definitely a process that is being streamlined and they’re trying to make it a as good as possible to get you to work.

So, talk a little bit about that. The security clearance and the national security piece of it, we obviously see the frustration point for new applicants or maybe folks who aren’t used to working in government or new to this process and like, “Ugh, why do I have to go through this, a hundred day vetting procedure,” or, “Why does it take so long to process this?” And the good news, I feel like I always try to say, it is improving, processing times, believe it or not, are better than they had been a few years ago even. But what other kind of advice or insight do you give to folks who might be considering a career in national security? Why is it worth pursuing despite some of these innate challenges that you have to go through in terms of getting through the door?

I think it’s a great field if you’re looking to support the country and support the war fighter, it’s a great field to be in. You can feel good about the help you’re providing, the technology or the research that you’re doing. To help our country, I think is great. The clearance process is tough. The fear of the unknown I think is hard for people. The first time you go through it is harder than the 15th time you go through filling out a clearance application. But I think that fear of the unknown, not knowing what the investigator may ask you or not knowing what may come of it, people tend to get in their heads and get very nervous about the process.

But I think just fill out your forms, be as honest as possible, make sure that you’re putting all the information on there. No matter how old it is or how embarrassing it might be, just make sure you’re answering the questions honestly and completely, and then just be as patient as possible and wait for that final determination to come through.

Yeah. No, and I think that’s great feedback. A lot of it is just kind of overcoming your own insecurities. Again, security clearance insecurity. Hey, there we go. About the process and having some baseline information, I mean, we’re big on that at ClearanceJobs just because a lot of the anxiousness that folks have about pursuing these careers, I mean, it’s innate, you don’t want somebody maybe looking into certain aspects of your past, but most things can be mitigated through the clearance process. And fortune favors the proactive, so I think that’s always a takeaway that I give. Are there any other thoughts like that that you give to applicants that might be considering this process? And even specifics to kind of Lincoln Labs, what advice would you give to someone who’s like, “Oh hey, that seems like an amazing career field. What would it take?”

I would definitely encourage people to talk to the security folks at the organization you’re looking to work in. Don’t Google things, don’t look things up on the internet because you may see cases where people had hard experiences or they had things in their background that precluded them from getting a security clearance. Everybody is different. Everybody is unique. That’s why anytime you ask Perry Russell-Hunter about a case, his first line is always, “It depends,” because it does depend and everybody’s different and has had different circumstances in their life. So, talk that out with the security people in the organization because you may have something different in your background than somebody else might have had. So, it’s all dependent on you and your whole background. So, have faith in the process. It seems like a big risk going through that process, but I think there’s a big reward, the work, like I said before, that you’re doing, it’s amazing work and it’s really impactful, and it’s something you should consider.

Absolutely. I think mission is a key driver for people today and the types of careers they want to pursue. And probably nobody has a better mission than national security. I think there’s a ton of opportunities out there, the diversity of opportunities, the different aspects and elements your career can take. And like you said, the whole person concept is really operating in folks favor, so just because you have one incident or issue in your past, I mean, the government is going to look at the totality of circumstances. And “it depends” is pretty much the standard response to if you’re able to obtain a security clearance because it’s totally going to be dependent upon the individual and the person, their own background and circumstances. Well, I so appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. Was there anything I didn’t ask you about that you wanted to touch on?

I would just tell people to be brave. So, if you’re looking to enter this profession, if you’re looking to work in security, I’m always telling people to be brave. And what that means is being brave means being afraid, but doing it anyways. So, if you’re not sure that you know want to work in this profession, give it a try, do your research. If you’re already in this profession and you’re looking to grow, ask to be in that meeting or ask for that position. Always try to take that step, take that opportunity and give it a try.

Yeah, I think there’s a lot within the security career field that you can do, and I love that advice, “Be brave, go out there, pursue opportunities.” We need new insights and we need new folks to consider the personnel security career field. And later on they can move into strategy and management like you did, Amy. So, there’s a whole arc of a career field that you can take within personnel security. I love it.